Even a seasoned cynic and pessimist like me still finds it hard to take in the level of depravity on display in Gaza. How did a race that lost 6m of its people to the Nazis end up behaving just like them?
Dozens of reasons and counter arguments, but a basic intellectual principle is,
Is the comparison valid?
Listen to the video Mike richards linked below.
Then, carefully, rigorously fact-check whatever it is you want to say about Nazis against Susan Abulhawa's recitation of what Jews have done to Palestinians.
Did Nazis do THAT? Did Nazis do THAT and That?
Is there evidence to support that claim about Nazis that is as solid as what we have seen and are seeing and, god help us, anticipate seeing more of, with our own eyes, that Jews are doing to Palestinians?
Support your claim, don't just toss it out there.
Or are our brains reverting to a default mode conditioned by years and years of propaganda, in movies, TV, pop novels, Think Tanks, public education. Even our preachers and religious models have assaulted us with propaganda, overt censorship as well and induced self-censoring.
People need to stop talking about the Nazis, and start talking about the Israelis. These horrors are far worse, and comparing them to Nazis is just a way of softpedal gaslighting.
I note that the IDF soldier interviewed by Haaretz who had served in Gaza compared the IDF to Nazis and the Gazans to Jews. It's a comparison. Comparisons don't need to be exact.
What elements of a comparison must be exact if the assertion is to have any validity at all?
I submit that at very least, the comparison must be
Fact :: Fact, not Fact ::Narrative.
In a Fact::Fact comparison, the Facts need not be exactly one:one, but both compared elements must be evidence and reality-based.
Of Francis Bacon's metaphorical Ants Spiders Bees, neocons, and zionists, are Spiders -- their reality is spun of the stuff in their minds, heedless of- and frequently denying observed evidence:
"We're an empire now and we make our own reality ..."
Newton was a "bee" -- balancing observation with reasoning.
I submit that much of what most people think they know about Nazis has its origin in narratives , the stuff of spiders, spun from one's own head-- movies, tv, museums, public education, etc., with the added reinforcement that the opposing view is forbidden, as is critical thinking about the narrative, which are not just not permitted but are severely punished.
What is being seen taking place in Gaza is real, it is not a narrative.
Fascinating that 1. false narratives were immediately brought to the fore about the events -- "40 beheaded babies;"
2. reporting of facts. as they were occurring were "spun" -- not "balanced with reason" but interpreted tendentiously.
3. The blackout on photos and reportage of damage Israel sustained from Iran follows a pattern of the necessity of concealing, denying or forbidding facts/evidence in order to sustain one's "own reality.
..."what most people think they know about Nazis has its origin in narratives".
This is true, and it needs to be brought up at any mention of Nazi as a narrative shaper and controller. It is just a way of saying...Oh well Gaza is not approaching The Greatest Sin Of All Time...the one that we can never stop talking about that happened to US...(the narrative we've protected by throwing Germans who disputed it in prison to die and ruin the livelihoods of historians who have tried analyzing the data in different ways).
It's a way of neutralizing everything they are doing and everything they've done by saying, Oh, you can't even talk about the harm we are doing to others without paying your toll to us and honoring the narratives that we have elevated.
...... just threw up again....... it is gut-wrenchingly nauseating and soul fracturing to realize that there are "humans?" that are capable of these atrocities. I cannot fathom this mental illness...... this is a mental, spiritual and soul illness..... parasite..... toxin...... that inhabits these people's mind-set......
Maniacal and Pathological Sycophantical Narcissism at it's worst/best....... and so many belong to this club now. Painful.......
.... this would be so important, enlightening and helpful for many of us to know and understand. If the narrative was to understand and clearly communicate so that we could co-create the resolution, repair and creation of something healthier and more sustainable as communities, nations and the Our world,.......Our Beloved Mother Earth ....... then that is what we would all be doing...... IMO ...... hence.......... vomit.
A punch in the gut, if you’re interested, is this clip of pure eloquence about existential pain, the cry of people for whom notions like morality, family, earth and nation matter more than death - totally foreign to the ‘west’, most of whom know nothing of history but suck on propaganda like a babe on a sweetie:
Excellent. "This is a prophetic promise given to the patriarch Abraham, pointing ultimately to his seed, Jesus Christ. It is through Christ, according to Galatians 3:16, that “all families of the earth” are offered reconciliation with the Divine. If that blessing is universal and messianic in scope, where then is the ethnic or national exclusivity so often ascribed to modern-day Israel?"
And then add the New Testament emphasis on Abraham's faith in God, which is meant as an example to all of us and is requisite for our salvation by putting our faith in Christ. This can only happen via the Holy Spirit through the means of grace: Baptism and the Word (the New Testament included). If the Christian Zionists are putting their faith the modern day state of Israel rather than Christ, it is very much misplaced.
Louis Brandeis, who became a respected leader of worldwide zionism in the world wars era, zionism's infancy period in Palestine, was not an observant Jew. He was not much involved in Jewish affairs for most of his life. He came to zionism in his 50s, and was mentored by Rabbi Stephen Wise and Horace M. Kallen, a professor os social science.
In the Preface to his book, Zionism and world politics: a study in history and social psychology (1921), Kallen wrote:
"There are two types of prejudices about the jews—those entertained by jews, and those entertained by non-jews. The former are rooted in an invincible vanity, expressed in the conception of the “Chose People,” reinforced by tradition, and confirmed and automatically justified as a psychological mechanism of self-defense by the tragic status of the Jew in the religious doctrine and social practices of the Christian world. The latter arises primarily out of the implications of the Christian religious system, which gives the jew a cosmic centrality unparalleled by the status of other peoples, even while it outlaws him from the fellowship of mankind."
Reading Kallen together with dissonant1's explanation of "Christianity" vs "Christian Zionism, which includes the notion of what have called supercessionism: that Christianity has superceded Judaism. Or, to interpret Kallen's words less politely, Christians have taken over Jewish doctrine for themselves and simultaneously shut Jews out of their own religious system.
This is not much different from Jews taking over Palestine and shutting out the Palestinian people from their own lands.
Christianity has been seriously fragmented, distorted and deformed for centuries. Only a radical re-thinking of what Christianity is and what its origins are can preserve it from irrelevance.
In the world wars era German theologians attempted to define Christianity on their own terms, separate from Hebrew influence. Susannah Heschel has spent most of the years since the war blasting that attempt, calling it the "Nazi Jesus."
In other words, Heschel insists that Germans hew closely to the religious beliefs Jews have handed on to them, excepting only the concept of Choseness: Only Jews are Chosen.
I dunno. I think a people ought to be able to define for themselves what they hold as a spiritual guide.
"The latter arises primarily out of the implications of the Christian religious system, which gives the jew a cosmic centrality unparalleled by the status of other peoples, even while it outlaws him from the fellowship of mankind."
How so? There is nothing in Christianity that outlaws Jews from the fellowship of belief in Christ or in the "fellowship of mankind." Christians do not believe that Christianity has superseded Judaism but that it is its fulfillment. Christ said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
Acts 3:17: Peter says “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." And beginning in verse 24: “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed."
Paul speaking in Romans 11:1: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew." He continues:
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
I could go on but does that sound like superseding or exclusion of the Jews? If Christians believe in God and they believe that God loves His creation and they believe they are to spread the Gospel to creation why would they believe this?
Many Israelis view the Christian Zionists as useful idiots. The Christian Zionists of the dispensationalist bent think that 1/3 of the Jews are going to be incinerated per some weird interpretation of Revelation, and that 144,000 will be saved. The Christian Zionists are dying out though, and the young aren’t buying it (or much of any religion).
The all on press by the Trump liars to convince everyone that his big beautiful attacks on Iran that saved the world from imminent nuclear annihilation continues unabated. Apparently, Trump is going to invite the B2 pilots to the WH. If you question the efficacy of the strikes, why you hate the brave B2 pilots, one of whom is a woman!
Trump’s juvenile tweetfest over the last day has the MAGA crowd cheering as he blasts away at Paul and Tillis for voting against his BBB. Never mind that nearly every good part of the bill has been stripped out by his supposed allies in the Senate.
And as Trump goes searching through the yellow pages for another orange man lite to run against his arch-rival Massie, his base quietly wonders when the drama is going to stop and Trump is going to become a normal human being who occasionally exhibits a sign of grace and humility.
Tillis is a firm NO vote to the BBB bill monster. Trump called in the Republican Senators set to vote NO to the bill. Tillis made his announcement after that, and my Senator Ron Johnson changed his vote to a YES (I wrote to Johnson, expressing my extreme disappointment).
A week or so ago MTG said she didn’t know about the AI provision in the BBB and had she known she would have voted NO. Well the new BBB is coming back at her, with the AI provision intact. Will she fold? My prediction is yes.
Sadly, I agree. For normally strong MTG to go along with the crowd of head-nodders to this dangerous bill would be bad. It was bad that my Sen. Johnson flipped his vote to a yes, especially after he had said he was going to vote NO.
Thomas Massie: what MAGA should been.
https://secure.thomasmassie.com/donate
I would like to have a STAND WITH MASSIE tee shirt.
I send a donation with every Trump attack.
Massie is Sassy? We accuse the Dems of marching in lockstep behind every mad initiative they undertake, and now we are demanding the same.
Even a seasoned cynic and pessimist like me still finds it hard to take in the level of depravity on display in Gaza. How did a race that lost 6m of its people to the Nazis end up behaving just like them?
Nazi references 'trigger' me.
Dozens of reasons and counter arguments, but a basic intellectual principle is,
Is the comparison valid?
Listen to the video Mike richards linked below.
Then, carefully, rigorously fact-check whatever it is you want to say about Nazis against Susan Abulhawa's recitation of what Jews have done to Palestinians.
Did Nazis do THAT? Did Nazis do THAT and That?
Is there evidence to support that claim about Nazis that is as solid as what we have seen and are seeing and, god help us, anticipate seeing more of, with our own eyes, that Jews are doing to Palestinians?
Support your claim, don't just toss it out there.
Or are our brains reverting to a default mode conditioned by years and years of propaganda, in movies, TV, pop novels, Think Tanks, public education. Even our preachers and religious models have assaulted us with propaganda, overt censorship as well and induced self-censoring.
People need to stop talking about the Nazis, and start talking about the Israelis. These horrors are far worse, and comparing them to Nazis is just a way of softpedal gaslighting.
Why?
Why? Because they are factually inaccurate and an insult to Germans.
I have no idea what you're trying to say, Tristam, but I recognise genocide and ethnic cleansing when I see them. The Nazis would be proud.
I note that the IDF soldier interviewed by Haaretz who had served in Gaza compared the IDF to Nazis and the Gazans to Jews. It's a comparison. Comparisons don't need to be exact.
What elements of a comparison must be exact if the assertion is to have any validity at all?
I submit that at very least, the comparison must be
Fact :: Fact, not Fact ::Narrative.
In a Fact::Fact comparison, the Facts need not be exactly one:one, but both compared elements must be evidence and reality-based.
Of Francis Bacon's metaphorical Ants Spiders Bees, neocons, and zionists, are Spiders -- their reality is spun of the stuff in their minds, heedless of- and frequently denying observed evidence:
"We're an empire now and we make our own reality ..."
Newton was a "bee" -- balancing observation with reasoning.
I submit that much of what most people think they know about Nazis has its origin in narratives , the stuff of spiders, spun from one's own head-- movies, tv, museums, public education, etc., with the added reinforcement that the opposing view is forbidden, as is critical thinking about the narrative, which are not just not permitted but are severely punished.
What is being seen taking place in Gaza is real, it is not a narrative.
Fascinating that 1. false narratives were immediately brought to the fore about the events -- "40 beheaded babies;"
2. reporting of facts. as they were occurring were "spun" -- not "balanced with reason" but interpreted tendentiously.
3. The blackout on photos and reportage of damage Israel sustained from Iran follows a pattern of the necessity of concealing, denying or forbidding facts/evidence in order to sustain one's "own reality.
..."what most people think they know about Nazis has its origin in narratives".
This is true, and it needs to be brought up at any mention of Nazi as a narrative shaper and controller. It is just a way of saying...Oh well Gaza is not approaching The Greatest Sin Of All Time...the one that we can never stop talking about that happened to US...(the narrative we've protected by throwing Germans who disputed it in prison to die and ruin the livelihoods of historians who have tried analyzing the data in different ways).
It's a way of neutralizing everything they are doing and everything they've done by saying, Oh, you can't even talk about the harm we are doing to others without paying your toll to us and honoring the narratives that we have elevated.
...... just threw up again....... it is gut-wrenchingly nauseating and soul fracturing to realize that there are "humans?" that are capable of these atrocities. I cannot fathom this mental illness...... this is a mental, spiritual and soul illness..... parasite..... toxin...... that inhabits these people's mind-set......
Maniacal and Pathological Sycophantical Narcissism at it's worst/best....... and so many belong to this club now. Painful.......
...becoming what you hate
Can you imagine what Israeli education is like? I'm sure they get the propaganda in from the very earliest years.
Max Blumenthal's book--Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel--devotes a chapter to that.
.... this would be so important, enlightening and helpful for many of us to know and understand. If the narrative was to understand and clearly communicate so that we could co-create the resolution, repair and creation of something healthier and more sustainable as communities, nations and the Our world,.......Our Beloved Mother Earth ....... then that is what we would all be doing...... IMO ...... hence.......... vomit.
A punch in the gut, if you’re interested, is this clip of pure eloquence about existential pain, the cry of people for whom notions like morality, family, earth and nation matter more than death - totally foreign to the ‘west’, most of whom know nothing of history but suck on propaganda like a babe on a sweetie:
https://youtu.be/0Vqd4N61N4o
We're stuck in a Jim Jones cult or some snake handler shit (times 1000).
At least we have air conditioning
Sacrilege and statecraft: How Christian Zionism distorts scripture to serve empire
https://www.rt.com/news/620745-israel-us-christian-zionism/
Excellent. "This is a prophetic promise given to the patriarch Abraham, pointing ultimately to his seed, Jesus Christ. It is through Christ, according to Galatians 3:16, that “all families of the earth” are offered reconciliation with the Divine. If that blessing is universal and messianic in scope, where then is the ethnic or national exclusivity so often ascribed to modern-day Israel?"
And then add the New Testament emphasis on Abraham's faith in God, which is meant as an example to all of us and is requisite for our salvation by putting our faith in Christ. This can only happen via the Holy Spirit through the means of grace: Baptism and the Word (the New Testament included). If the Christian Zionists are putting their faith the modern day state of Israel rather than Christ, it is very much misplaced.
Louis Brandeis, who became a respected leader of worldwide zionism in the world wars era, zionism's infancy period in Palestine, was not an observant Jew. He was not much involved in Jewish affairs for most of his life. He came to zionism in his 50s, and was mentored by Rabbi Stephen Wise and Horace M. Kallen, a professor os social science.
In the Preface to his book, Zionism and world politics: a study in history and social psychology (1921), Kallen wrote:
"There are two types of prejudices about the jews—those entertained by jews, and those entertained by non-jews. The former are rooted in an invincible vanity, expressed in the conception of the “Chose People,” reinforced by tradition, and confirmed and automatically justified as a psychological mechanism of self-defense by the tragic status of the Jew in the religious doctrine and social practices of the Christian world. The latter arises primarily out of the implications of the Christian religious system, which gives the jew a cosmic centrality unparalleled by the status of other peoples, even while it outlaws him from the fellowship of mankind."
https://archive.org/details/zionismworldpoli00kalluoft/page/n7/mode/2up
Reading Kallen together with dissonant1's explanation of "Christianity" vs "Christian Zionism, which includes the notion of what have called supercessionism: that Christianity has superceded Judaism. Or, to interpret Kallen's words less politely, Christians have taken over Jewish doctrine for themselves and simultaneously shut Jews out of their own religious system.
This is not much different from Jews taking over Palestine and shutting out the Palestinian people from their own lands.
Christianity has been seriously fragmented, distorted and deformed for centuries. Only a radical re-thinking of what Christianity is and what its origins are can preserve it from irrelevance.
In the world wars era German theologians attempted to define Christianity on their own terms, separate from Hebrew influence. Susannah Heschel has spent most of the years since the war blasting that attempt, calling it the "Nazi Jesus."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSuut-l1McA&t=18s
In other words, Heschel insists that Germans hew closely to the religious beliefs Jews have handed on to them, excepting only the concept of Choseness: Only Jews are Chosen.
I dunno. I think a people ought to be able to define for themselves what they hold as a spiritual guide.
"The latter arises primarily out of the implications of the Christian religious system, which gives the jew a cosmic centrality unparalleled by the status of other peoples, even while it outlaws him from the fellowship of mankind."
How so? There is nothing in Christianity that outlaws Jews from the fellowship of belief in Christ or in the "fellowship of mankind." Christians do not believe that Christianity has superseded Judaism but that it is its fulfillment. Christ said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
Acts 3:17: Peter says “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord." And beginning in verse 24: “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed."
Paul speaking in Romans 11:1: "I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew." He continues:
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
I could go on but does that sound like superseding or exclusion of the Jews? If Christians believe in God and they believe that God loves His creation and they believe they are to spread the Gospel to creation why would they believe this?
It’s good that the wickedness and stupidity of CZ is being discussed openly. It’s sorta integral to Bushie conservatism in Texas.
Many Israelis view the Christian Zionists as useful idiots. The Christian Zionists of the dispensationalist bent think that 1/3 of the Jews are going to be incinerated per some weird interpretation of Revelation, and that 144,000 will be saved. The Christian Zionists are dying out though, and the young aren’t buying it (or much of any religion).
Many Christians view them as unuseful idiots.
Very well put.
The all on press by the Trump liars to convince everyone that his big beautiful attacks on Iran that saved the world from imminent nuclear annihilation continues unabated. Apparently, Trump is going to invite the B2 pilots to the WH. If you question the efficacy of the strikes, why you hate the brave B2 pilots, one of whom is a woman!
Trump’s juvenile tweetfest over the last day has the MAGA crowd cheering as he blasts away at Paul and Tillis for voting against his BBB. Never mind that nearly every good part of the bill has been stripped out by his supposed allies in the Senate.
And as Trump goes searching through the yellow pages for another orange man lite to run against his arch-rival Massie, his base quietly wonders when the drama is going to stop and Trump is going to become a normal human being who occasionally exhibits a sign of grace and humility.
Senator Tillis is not going to run again.
Whatever Trump said to him...the outcome is Tillis' announcement to leave the Senate at the end of his term.
Tillis is no conservative, but Paul and Massie are, and they are the current subject of Trump’s wrath.
Tillis is a firm NO vote to the BBB bill monster. Trump called in the Republican Senators set to vote NO to the bill. Tillis made his announcement after that, and my Senator Ron Johnson changed his vote to a YES (I wrote to Johnson, expressing my extreme disappointment).
What did Trump say?
A week or so ago MTG said she didn’t know about the AI provision in the BBB and had she known she would have voted NO. Well the new BBB is coming back at her, with the AI provision intact. Will she fold? My prediction is yes.
Sadly, I agree. For normally strong MTG to go along with the crowd of head-nodders to this dangerous bill would be bad. It was bad that my Sen. Johnson flipped his vote to a yes, especially after he had said he was going to vote NO.