I came across this interesting transcript of a conversation between two fairly well known liberals who dissent from the Zhou regime’s policy of aggression against Russia—Robert Scheer, a journalist, and Michael Brenner, an academic.
"..there’s something wrong with society and culture as a whole. But even saying that, it's up to your political leaders and elites to protect you from that, to protect the populace from that, and to protect themselves from falling prey to similar fantasies and irrationalities, and instead we see just the opposite."
Brenner gets this exactly backwards. And it reflects the attitude and class assumptions that fuel so much of the corruption and dysfunction in America. The political leaders are not designed to protect we the people from heretical thinking,but they certainly believe that's their role. Brenner at least recognizes the demented psychosis of the oligarchy but he assigns its origin to the broader American culture. I.e., these poor leaders have fallen prey to a sick American society.
I reject that notion as overbroad. In fact, we generally condemn our society as sick and corrupt in broad brush when the truth is that we have a perverse and evil subculture manifesting through dominance in media which gives the illusion of broad adoption. For most Americans, however, we are pretty traditional and normal. Our fault is that we don't want to get involved so the sickos are left free to fester and multiply.
I think you're going a bit overboard in defending the health of American society. The desire to "not get involved" is a significant defect. The willingness to entrust one's children to government schools--there is still a choice in that regard--says a lot about the moral and character makeup of the population. In fairness to Brenner, I very much doubt that he intends to defend the oligarchs at all. If asked, I'd bet that he would maintain that they have betrayed the populace, and that that's what he means in the text you quoted. He's saying that political leaders have responsibilities to protect the populace AND THEMSELVES from fantasies and delusions. "Instead we see just the opposite." IOW, they've betrayed the trust of the populace, just as the populace has also allowed itself to fall prey to "delusions and fantasies and irrationalities."
How do we know? When i look around at my own purplish community, neighbors etc...i see people who are *for the most part* decent hardworking people. They are nothing like the freakshow we are fed in the propaganda media. Sometimes i think we are all prone to get caught up in mass media and believe their hype that the sickness is widespread.
Yes, if i had kids that age now I'd keep them out of public schools but not doing so is hardly the wreck and ruin we fear. Non involvement is bad but born of typical human failing. Zealots and idealogues are very involved but not in a good way. At any rate, point being that Americans in general are not nearly as far gone as we decry. Just brainwashed and fearful of the future ie leave is alone
"...the discourse as it has crystalized is not only uniform, but it is in so many respects senseless, lacking any kind of inner logic, whether you agree with the premises and the formally stated objectives or not."
The same for discourse around Covid-19, and almost every subject of any consequence to our society it seems.
Pseudonymous DC foreign policy establishment insider's epic take on what the Ukraine scuffle means to China and NWO 2.0. Not endorsing, just cross-pollinating. Enjoy!
Ok, what I gleaned from this is that the “elites” are hell bent on taking this country and the world over the edge of the cliff in pursuit of their nihilistic fantasy. Those with a dissenting opinion need to keep their mouths shut lest they be ostracized and personally vilified. Furthermore, there appears to be absolutely nothing that we lowly peasants can do to stop this irrational insanity.
Have I missed something?
I’ve had the suspicion for some time that we are already in free fall in the US, but no one wants to say it out loud. We have a demented old fool as CinC, the last election does not pass the smell test,
free speech is now seen to be a horrible idea and should be eliminated, men can be pregnant, there are umpteen genders and we are now governed by “rules” rather than laws. I sincerely wish I could see some glimmer of hope, but quite frankly it seems that we are definitely in the “nothing short of a miracle can save us now” period of this country’s history.
Great find, Mark. This may be the best big picture perspective on the Russia-Ukraine-USA events that I've read anywhere. Scheer and Brenner both are way too complacent--and purblind--about the CCP towards the end but, hey, lefties gonna lefty.
If anybody doesn't know who Robert Scheer is, he got fired or let go by the LA Times and Barbra Streisand threatened to move or at least give up her subscription. The guy is extremely Left and I say this as a native Angelino somehow avoided becoming a California commie like so many others out here.
He brings up Lillian Hellman trashing McCarthy without mentioning her love for all things Stalin. She was of the few that did not bolt the "Party" over the Non-Aggression Pact. I'll see it through as Mr. Wauck posts interesting things but all must know the players and their backgrounds. Her book Julia was a complete fabrication yet many think it was about what she did, Watch on the Rhine and Julia were stories not based on fact but REAL Propaganda.
That's why I provided the link to Scheer's Wikipedia page. I recognized the Hellman ref, too. Also note, however, that Scheer says that Brenner's work "turned me on to a whole different way of looking at what happened to Ukraine." IOW, he had previously been reflexively anti-Putin, or something of the sort.
By no means am I chiding you good Sir, just trying to make sure a couple of things are perfectly clear. So many know so little. I read somewhere that Hellman was booked to give 2 speeches on consecutive nights. In between Hitler had invaded Russia so she had to rewrite the whole thing to encourage the US to enter to help Stalin, the night before it was Stay Out of Europe's problems.......yet she is so revered and Dashiell Hammett was her squeeze.
In my view, a major part of the problem is that none of our current leaders, on either side of the political spectrum, have "felt the heat". By that I mean the heat of a nuclear explosion. It used to be a practice to bring new members of an in-coming administration, and especially Presidents, out to the Nevada test site to witness an atmospheric nuclear test in person - to" feel the heat" of a nuclear fireball on their faces. JFK was the last, and it apparently had a profound effect on him. It led directly to the atmospheric test ban treaty and probably saved civilization from escalation of several conflicts between the US and the Soviet Union - apparently Soviet leaders had also "felt the heat" and pulled back from the ultimate conflict. Today, none of our leaders have "felt the heat" of even a large-scale conventional war, let alone the "shock and awe" of a nuclear exchange. And they, in their hubris, seem oblivious to the danger. God help us.
Here’s a mind like Cohen’s, Crooke or Mearshimer- tx for doing the slicing and dicing Mark - it is just so disheartening that his voice is not heard - terrible the way he feels alienated from his “ peers.” It does seem that this mania for hegemony will be our undoing. Brenner gets the psychology right too -
On a related note, I saw a list w/maybe only 10 Republicans that voted against Biden's request for the $33 billion to Ukraine. Been meaning to research that further.
First I erred - do not think the $33 billion aid pkg has gone up for vote yet. There has been a list of 10 Republican Congress members who "voted against war" floating abt, but I have no context for exactly what the vote was - stand alone or in conjunction w/an aid pkg?
In answer to your question, piotr, there are 209 Republican members of the House of Representatives.
"..there’s something wrong with society and culture as a whole. But even saying that, it's up to your political leaders and elites to protect you from that, to protect the populace from that, and to protect themselves from falling prey to similar fantasies and irrationalities, and instead we see just the opposite."
Brenner gets this exactly backwards. And it reflects the attitude and class assumptions that fuel so much of the corruption and dysfunction in America. The political leaders are not designed to protect we the people from heretical thinking,but they certainly believe that's their role. Brenner at least recognizes the demented psychosis of the oligarchy but he assigns its origin to the broader American culture. I.e., these poor leaders have fallen prey to a sick American society.
I reject that notion as overbroad. In fact, we generally condemn our society as sick and corrupt in broad brush when the truth is that we have a perverse and evil subculture manifesting through dominance in media which gives the illusion of broad adoption. For most Americans, however, we are pretty traditional and normal. Our fault is that we don't want to get involved so the sickos are left free to fester and multiply.
I think you're going a bit overboard in defending the health of American society. The desire to "not get involved" is a significant defect. The willingness to entrust one's children to government schools--there is still a choice in that regard--says a lot about the moral and character makeup of the population. In fairness to Brenner, I very much doubt that he intends to defend the oligarchs at all. If asked, I'd bet that he would maintain that they have betrayed the populace, and that that's what he means in the text you quoted. He's saying that political leaders have responsibilities to protect the populace AND THEMSELVES from fantasies and delusions. "Instead we see just the opposite." IOW, they've betrayed the trust of the populace, just as the populace has also allowed itself to fall prey to "delusions and fantasies and irrationalities."
How do we know? When i look around at my own purplish community, neighbors etc...i see people who are *for the most part* decent hardworking people. They are nothing like the freakshow we are fed in the propaganda media. Sometimes i think we are all prone to get caught up in mass media and believe their hype that the sickness is widespread.
Yes, if i had kids that age now I'd keep them out of public schools but not doing so is hardly the wreck and ruin we fear. Non involvement is bad but born of typical human failing. Zealots and idealogues are very involved but not in a good way. At any rate, point being that Americans in general are not nearly as far gone as we decry. Just brainwashed and fearful of the future ie leave is alone
H/T to Stephen McIntryre, whom I criticized not long ago:
https://twitter.com/ClimateAudit/status/1520252900651372545?cxt=HHwWgsCogaz9gpkqAAAA
"...the discourse as it has crystalized is not only uniform, but it is in so many respects senseless, lacking any kind of inner logic, whether you agree with the premises and the formally stated objectives or not."
The same for discourse around Covid-19, and almost every subject of any consequence to our society it seems.
Pseudonymous DC foreign policy establishment insider's epic take on what the Ukraine scuffle means to China and NWO 2.0. Not endorsing, just cross-pollinating. Enjoy!
http://theupheaval.substack.com/p/the-world-order-reset/comments
Ok, what I gleaned from this is that the “elites” are hell bent on taking this country and the world over the edge of the cliff in pursuit of their nihilistic fantasy. Those with a dissenting opinion need to keep their mouths shut lest they be ostracized and personally vilified. Furthermore, there appears to be absolutely nothing that we lowly peasants can do to stop this irrational insanity.
Have I missed something?
I’ve had the suspicion for some time that we are already in free fall in the US, but no one wants to say it out loud. We have a demented old fool as CinC, the last election does not pass the smell test,
free speech is now seen to be a horrible idea and should be eliminated, men can be pregnant, there are umpteen genders and we are now governed by “rules” rather than laws. I sincerely wish I could see some glimmer of hope, but quite frankly it seems that we are definitely in the “nothing short of a miracle can save us now” period of this country’s history.
God has saved peoples but he does not save countries.
Great find, Mark. This may be the best big picture perspective on the Russia-Ukraine-USA events that I've read anywhere. Scheer and Brenner both are way too complacent--and purblind--about the CCP towards the end but, hey, lefties gonna lefty.
If anybody doesn't know who Robert Scheer is, he got fired or let go by the LA Times and Barbra Streisand threatened to move or at least give up her subscription. The guy is extremely Left and I say this as a native Angelino somehow avoided becoming a California commie like so many others out here.
He brings up Lillian Hellman trashing McCarthy without mentioning her love for all things Stalin. She was of the few that did not bolt the "Party" over the Non-Aggression Pact. I'll see it through as Mr. Wauck posts interesting things but all must know the players and their backgrounds. Her book Julia was a complete fabrication yet many think it was about what she did, Watch on the Rhine and Julia were stories not based on fact but REAL Propaganda.
That's why I provided the link to Scheer's Wikipedia page. I recognized the Hellman ref, too. Also note, however, that Scheer says that Brenner's work "turned me on to a whole different way of looking at what happened to Ukraine." IOW, he had previously been reflexively anti-Putin, or something of the sort.
By no means am I chiding you good Sir, just trying to make sure a couple of things are perfectly clear. So many know so little. I read somewhere that Hellman was booked to give 2 speeches on consecutive nights. In between Hitler had invaded Russia so she had to rewrite the whole thing to encourage the US to enter to help Stalin, the night before it was Stay Out of Europe's problems.......yet she is so revered and Dashiell Hammett was her squeeze.
I understand. I try to be clear about my use of sources--it's all situational.
In my view, a major part of the problem is that none of our current leaders, on either side of the political spectrum, have "felt the heat". By that I mean the heat of a nuclear explosion. It used to be a practice to bring new members of an in-coming administration, and especially Presidents, out to the Nevada test site to witness an atmospheric nuclear test in person - to" feel the heat" of a nuclear fireball on their faces. JFK was the last, and it apparently had a profound effect on him. It led directly to the atmospheric test ban treaty and probably saved civilization from escalation of several conflicts between the US and the Soviet Union - apparently Soviet leaders had also "felt the heat" and pulled back from the ultimate conflict. Today, none of our leaders have "felt the heat" of even a large-scale conventional war, let alone the "shock and awe" of a nuclear exchange. And they, in their hubris, seem oblivious to the danger. God help us.
Here’s a mind like Cohen’s, Crooke or Mearshimer- tx for doing the slicing and dicing Mark - it is just so disheartening that his voice is not heard - terrible the way he feels alienated from his “ peers.” It does seem that this mania for hegemony will be our undoing. Brenner gets the psychology right too -
On a related note, I saw a list w/maybe only 10 Republicans that voted against Biden's request for the $33 billion to Ukraine. Been meaning to research that further.
First I erred - do not think the $33 billion aid pkg has gone up for vote yet. There has been a list of 10 Republican Congress members who "voted against war" floating abt, but I have no context for exactly what the vote was - stand alone or in conjunction w/an aid pkg?
In answer to your question, piotr, there are 209 Republican members of the House of Representatives.
There were only 10 Republicans who voted against the "Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act" passed by the House on Thursday 417 - 10.
The current state of Polish government thinking is very disturbing. I have to consider whether Kaczyński is actually mentally unbalanced.
Who, Ted? Nah, he's alright. Just got a bad rap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski