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SMH's avatar

Pushed the wrong button, comment was a reply to “21”. Sorry.

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SMH's avatar

I don’t see Putin doing anything that shortsighted. He’s holding four aces and the Neocons are sucking canal water. They pretty much came unarmed to a battle of wits, and their undoing will be a sight to behold. The wildcard remains, are they willing to go nuclear?

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ML's avatar

“Therefore, Russia will want facts on the ground to anchor a peace, and the only way to obtain those facts on the ground is through warfare.” MKB

Right - facts vs delusional, narrative-weaving thinking. Do we really think that after goading and poking the Bear to invade (using “sovereignty” and the whole hit parade of rules-based-order nonsense), that we could click our heels together and all would be well, the Russians would saunter to the negotiating table and duly submit to their punishment?? Also, very bad news about Nuland failing upwards.

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ML's avatar

NB - a concise clear and compelling history of our poking, over the last 30+ years - I’ve had to refer to this due to family members who all cry out in unison, “but Putin!” Funny, it’s either Trump or Putin, both evil dictators, never facts…

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/not-one-inch-brief-review-archives-nato-expansion

For others who could use some meaning in history!

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SMH's avatar

Ooops, should read “to go”.

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SMH's avatar

However this mess finally shakes out, I don’t see the neocons giving up their delusional take on reality without pitching a fit and that’s what bothers me. Just how far are they willing to before they finally relent.? I’m still not completely convinced that they have ruled out a nuclear engagement.

Scary to think that people so bereft of common sense are in such powerful positions.

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Steghorn21's avatar

In the dictionary, negotiation comes after annihilation. Putin would be crazy to make any deals before the Ukrainian army and NATO are entirely neutered. If Nuland really is the main player in the State Dept, she will soon be up to her old tricks if Putin lets her.

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chuck99z28's avatar

I wonder if they have anything I’d want to buy.

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NFO's avatar

...because USAID-orchestrated privatization worked out so well for Russia in the early '90s. Same exact cabal buying on the cheap, no doubt, while touting their investment in Western "norms," Slava Ukraini and all that good sh!t.

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Ray-SoCa's avatar

I see it as Ukrainian scavengers see the end is near, and want to steal as much as possible:

> Western scavangers also appear to be active

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Steghorn21's avatar

Looks like the Russians are taking the gloves off - at last! I wonder how much of Ukraine they'll need to take over? There's no guarantee that a rump Ukraine state can be made to stay neutral.

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Jul 26, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

I agree, but the devil is in the details. How, with the West's complete untrustworthiness, would Putin guarantee a strong, neutral, demilitarized Ukraine? This would only happen with a complete change in mindset in the West.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

In theory, yes, Rascal. In practice, I think the neocons have invested so much in this that for them too it's existential. NATO is a US tool. If it is humiliated (even further!), it's one more nail in the coffin of US hegemony.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Mark Wauck's avatar

I'd definitely take issue with Mearshimer on that. It's existential for Russia because the West has made no bones about its intent to subjugate Russia and loot it--it's intent is a return to the Yeltsin years. That's existential for any nation. The Russian people know that.

Existential for the US? In what conceivable sense? Russia isn't coming across the Atlantic/Pacific to subjugate the US. Is it existential for the Neocons? No. They'll live to direct US policy another day. Support for this war in the US--the only country that matters--is a mile wide and an inch deep. You can see that in the support that Trump and RFK are getting.

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Steghorn21's avatar

I still get the feeling that for the globalists and neocons, crushing Russia is existential. They see her and China as their biggest obstacles to maintaining and extending hegemony. Ukraine itself is existential to the extent that it is the best option at present at really get back at Russia.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

It's an unsettling insight into how people who seek power for power's sake operate. If a reasonably normal person was in charge of America, maybe they would be realistic enough to accept US decline and attempt to reshape the country as just one of many important nations. However, for the psychopaths in charge of us, that reduced global status would never suffice. It's Number One or nothing for them.

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SMH's avatar

I thought Nuland had been sidelined from the number 2 spot.? As Donald Rumsfeld used to say, “ that’s not helpful”!

There are so many balls in the air right now that I don’t think anyone has a clue where things are headed. Not a good situation when you have the village idiot play acting as President and apt to say or do just about anything before his handlers can stop him. What could possibly go wrong?

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Jul 26, 2023
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SMH's avatar

Turtle didn’t look on top of things today. Pulled a Biden and had to be helped from the podium.

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Steghorn21's avatar

That's yet another way in which we've traded places with the old USSR: we're run by a gerontocracy.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

I've heard that the negotiations aren't going anyway. The West is proposing completely unrealistic things and Russia isn't interested. The hypersonic diplomacy will continue until the West comes to its senses.

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Mark Wauck's avatar

And imagine what the Russians think of them.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

Boris Johnson is a war criminal.

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Jul 27, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

BJ is known as a congenital liar. He was sacked from The Times (London) for making up quotations. He's probably a psychopath.

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Jul 27, 2023Edited
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Steghorn21's avatar

There's US neocon delusion...and then there's British elite delusion.

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Jul 27, 2023
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chuck99z28's avatar

I guess I don’t know what is so bad about Russia compared to the current state of America. Seems like the government lies less in Russia

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perle's avatar

The difference between Russia and America seems to be that from what I have read Russia is concerned with what their public thinks. Our government isn't.

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Steghorn21's avatar

You can predict the West's negotiation stances. We're moving from "dismantlement of Russia", through "Freeze the war" to "Can we at least keep Starbucks open in Lviv?"

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Mark Wauck's avatar

Right. Corresponding to the Stages of Denial.

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Jul 26, 2023
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Mark Wauck's avatar

Thanks for that update.

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Steghorn21's avatar

That's still bad news. However, in the long run, she won't come out of this with her reputation (such as it is) enhanced.

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Jul 26, 2023
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Steghorn21's avatar

Putin likes to follow the law but I see no reason, what with the illegal ways in which Russia has been treated by the "international community", why he would respect these contracts made with an illegitimate Kiev regime.

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