My impression is that for most Westerners the current war in Palestine—which pits the Israeli government, with its plans for the ethnic cleansing of all Palestinian controlled areas, against Hamas fighters, but also targeting the civilian Palestinian population—dates back to around 1948. In fact, this war is a continuation of the British Empire’s global colonial project, updated with some major new players, like the American Empire. As such, it’s larger context includes British designs to use Germany against both the French and Russians—which continues to day with the UK’s proxy war against Russia, using the American Empire as its proxy.
I do love history, both Mark’s substack and what we’ve experienced. I never realized to what extent some of those old Brit’s were every bit the racist modern race baters claim America is. How did our own KKK not hook up with Rhodes and Amery and their “fellow travelers”………or maybe they did?
Important link and discussion at CTH. I believe the story propagated was that Israeli refugees were being flown in to be resettled in Dagestan. A bit like our open borders.
How this grand design was buttressed, how consent was won at home and further afield, is a story told in this book. I can't recommend it unreservedly because it's really not very well written (too much leaning towards the academy) but if you can get a copy it's worth a skim. The propaganda techniques discussed may seem quaint by today's standards but the underlying methodologies are not all that different.
I might submit that one of the requirements of participation in the discussions here is (or should be) that the participant must be able to hold two or more utterly contradictory ideas in his head and then consider how they might be reconciled or why they can't be reconciled.
For example: (1) Britain is a poodle bitch of the US and (2) the US is in thrall to British notions of imperialism.
Look, if this were easy we could all go home and find something more useful to do with our time.
The contradictory ideas which most consume me are (1) the idea that the US is the most perfect manifestation of democratic ideals the world has ever seen and (2) the reality that the US is the most deadly warmonger state the world has ever seen.
It looks to me like someone or some thing is using a strong nation as a host to allow them to play out their scheming machinations, then when the host nation has served its purpose (and perhaps got too domineering) has been destroyed as a new host nation has been found. Britain was used, then destroyed. America was used and is possibly now being destroyed. I'm just thinking out aloud here.
Dr. Gabor Mate, a truly gentle soul, speaking passionately and wisely about what has happened and is happening in the middle east. “I know what happened to my own people [meaning the Jews in the Holocaust]. Nothing that happened to us in any way justifies what’s going on right now.” He finishes by demolishing Netanyahu’s grotesque appeal to apocalyptic prophecy.
Can I just remind people that much of the quoted texts above describe what Britain used to be like, not what it is like now. Britain is America's poodle bitch. There may be a small group of weirdos in the home countries who try to relive past glories (failures actually), but they are hopeless has-beens. Even if we can't agree on who is really calling the shots in global power politics we can hopefully agree that there are several competing power nodes (even inside supposed alliances) and there may be some form of civil war going on within the Illuminati.
He who has the most money and wields excessive power calls the shots or tries too. Why do you think we’ve gone down this perilous path of deviancy and perversion? Who is calling the shots? The 75% donors do and they are stealing the wealth of the country by diverting our treasury to the service of war profiteers who process (launder) the cash while scraping off their taste and the money then goes to operations they (the 75%) own where even more profits find their way into their portfolios. This has been going on for centuries.
True. I remember Max Keiser pointing out that whenever some insanely dangerous financial instrument showed its face, it was invented in London, then given to Wall Street to implement.
This was based on their fear of losing India from whom the British was just the last in a long line of powerful conquerors who raped and pillaged the country of their wealth and resources. They feared Russia would interrupt their theft.
No doubt they're trying to change the electorate, but...
This is a play out of the ancient empire playbook. The Assyrians, Babylonians... conquer, depopulate, resettle..
One of the post-WWII takeaways was that nationalism was the font of fascism. So, open borders, LGBTWTF assault on the family... it's all about protecting democracy from fascism.
Honestly your comment made my day. Said as much in a recent comment too. Its undercurrent is all over my generation. That is the generation with Irish immigrant grandparents. The grandchildren generation not so much.
I disagree with Israel doing ethnic cleansing - it's getting rid of Hamas, not the rest of the Palestinians. And it's not directed against Palestinian civilians, although no doubt they will suffer and die. This is a tragic but necessary part of completely defeating an enemy. Ask the citizens of Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc, etc. But neither Japan nor Germany was ever aggressive again.
The analogy isn't really apt, S. Destroying Gaza and its inhabitants to get rid of Hamas is like burning down your neighbourhood to get rid of your bed bugs. There's been far too much moral equivalence from both sides concerning the fighting in Gaza. The Hamas folks who killed those Israelis are evil, and so are the Israelis who are levelling whole swathes of Gaza and killing thousands of innocent Palestinians.
Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? The destruction of civilians in those cities wasn’t an unfortunate side-effect of the bombing. It was the point. It wasn’t a “tragic but necessary part of completely defeating the enemy.” It was a violation of the norms of warfare — i.e., a war crime. Thus to use them to excuse what’s happening in Gaza is rather ironic considering you “disagree with Israel doing ethnic cleansing.”
There was no such thing as "smart bombs" back then. They only way to expedite the process to allow the Axis to succumb was carpet bombing. Yes it included civilians but also targeted industrial centers and military operations. The point is back then that is the only way this could be accomplished. Hence, never considered as "war crimes". This was the 40's.
I thought there was a difference between accidental or “collateral” and intentional civilian causalities. The latter is universally considered outside the bounds of legitimate warfare (though history is littered with violations) — hence the outrage over the killing of women and children by Hamas and Israel in the current conflict. The fact is, the carpet bombing of residential areas was not merely an unfortunate collateral consequence of inaccurate targeting of otherwise legit military sites. Civilians WERE the target.
I get that Brits were eager to exact revenge for the Blitz (which, incidentally, was a war crime). I also get that, in the heat of the moment (go figure), the allied establishment and public were broadly in agreement that the ends (bringing the war to a quicker end) justified the means (carpet bombing civilians). So, of course it has never been considered a war crime.
But none of this negates the fact that the intentional bombing of civilians would have been condemned (even in the 40s) except that, as usual, the victors got to decide what was and was not a crime.
Yes, it was the point. But the war was already lost for Germany when Dresden was bombed, and Japan had to be forced to surrender before many more Allied troops (and Japanese civilians) would have died. Both had to have their will to fight removed. But you won’t understand that or Israel’s position now.
Dresden was a shameful act of retribution against a civilian population. Whether the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was strictly necessary and saved lives is hotly debated to this day. You can’t simply assert otherwise as if its self-evident. Moreover, even if the bombing ended the war quicker and saved allied troops, it arguably remains the case that purposefully instigating the mass destruction (!) of a civilian population was and is a war crime.
But all of it was the consequence of fallible political decisions. And you cannot erase the criminal behavior of the Japanese of its prisoner treatment and invasion tactics. Make your case to the Americans who sacrificed their lives and were marched to starvation and death by them. How quickly we forget. Ask the soldier survivors. What utter hubris is in all of this thread. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. It reminds me of all those idiots who hate Columbus for bumping into the “New World”. As if acts don’t have consequences.
The analogy to WWII Germany and Japan is a poor one, for a few reasons:
Neither Gaza nor the West Bank was ever culturally self-contained or politically self-determined. These are parts of the Arab world, which will continue to influence the survivors. Do you propose that the entire Arab world should suffer this "complete defeat"? Imagine what that conflagration would look like!
America invested heavily in the postwar rebuilding and reshaping of West Germany and Japan. Do you imagine Israel engaging in this level of economic cooperation and cultural exchange with its "completely defeated" internal Arab population? That would be quite a policy reversal. They've held these people in what amounts to concentration camps for decades now.
I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but the aggressor in Ukraine has been the Ukrainian regime itself. They have terrorized and murdered the Russian speaking population of the country since 2014. Moreover, Russian forces aren’t rampaging through Ukraine killing people. They have dug into defensive positions while the Ukrainians hurl 100s of thousands of men at them in hopeless offensive actions at our behest. The question isn’t whether Russia will stop until it reaches its goals. The question is whether we will.
I do not deny that Israel has as much a right to defend itself as does Russia (though I would dispute whether the campaign in Gaza in its present form constitutes a legitimate defensive action). My point was not simply that Russia had reason to invade Ukraine, but that Russia has been very careful to avoid killing civilians. What’s more, the lives of all those Ukrainian soldiers could have been saved if the West hadn’t prevented Ukraine from reaching a peaceful settlement with Russia in the early months of the war.
That's simply disinformational. Hamas rockets are not remotely on the same level of threat as Ukrainian artillery and missiles. A simple comparison of casualties illustrates that.
I'm also interested to note that you consistently fail to address the Nakba, or the videos of Israeli veterans of the 1948 war and its aftermath--interviews on Israeli TV--recounting massacres, rapes, and plundering of Arab villagers. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's also noteworthy that you fail to address the widespread disinformation--40 babies beheaded? What's up?
"I suspect someone sitting in a house in Israel feels the same fear as someone in Ukraine"
Why are you so unable to feel any empathy for people in Gaza? I just saw an article detailing that the Israelis are using one ton bombs on civilian areas. There is no proportionality whatsoever there. That is done--and quite expressly so--to maximize destruction and casualties. The Israeli policy of deterrence is expressly a policy of disproportionate response, and that ipso facto means massive civilian casualties.
Later, perhaps tomorrow, I'll be providing a transcript of a John Mearsheimer talk in which he addresses some of the rest.
Russia's only goal was protecting their perimeter and was promised through treaty NATO would not infringe on their borders. I think their goal is legitimate, what b
That is true, Frank and our government has a lot of shame hung upon all of citizens for a project that does not benefit any of us unless you have a place at the swine trough where the money in politics flows to the swine who pretend to protect our country. Both the Ukraine debacle and now the Hamas/Israel conflict is just more of the same. I am not pro-Hamas nor am I pro-Israel. I'm tired of the theater of atrocity porn intended to keep us in a constant state of fear while our leaders continue to destroy us from within.
I actually liked the comparison of Hamas to the IRA, but no genocide. We should have stopped funding the UK occupation of the Falklands and Gibraltar and stop funding Israel's occupations.
"when Israel kills innocents, ..., it is not done deliberately."
I won't tolerate you using my space to propagate lies. One example of many possible examples.
Israel has openly stated that their policy of deterrence is based on massively disproportionate responses. That's why Israeli generals are now openly stating that the purpose of their bombing is *maximum destruction* in a city of 2.3 million people. Not precision strikes on Hamas. Maximum destruction. That means that those massive civilian casualties are *intended.* They are not incidental. That's the entire point of the Israeli theory of deterrence.
"Anyone who thinks for one second [Israel] gives a damn about any civilian casualties in Gaza is an idiot."
It all reminds me of the old Movie "Jewel of the Nile". Remember that one?
RIAA still chortling. https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/10/israel-has-capacity-significantly-damage-hamas-ground-offensive-politics-will-restrain-it
I do love history, both Mark’s substack and what we’ve experienced. I never realized to what extent some of those old Brit’s were every bit the racist modern race baters claim America is. How did our own KKK not hook up with Rhodes and Amery and their “fellow travelers”………or maybe they did?
The KKK was B'nai Brith, which was the stronghold of Scottish Rite Masonry, which is ostensibly British.
Important link and discussion at CTH. I believe the story propagated was that Israeli refugees were being flown in to be resettled in Dagestan. A bit like our open borders.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2023/10/30/quick-follow-up-makhachkala-airport-operation/
How this grand design was buttressed, how consent was won at home and further afield, is a story told in this book. I can't recommend it unreservedly because it's really not very well written (too much leaning towards the academy) but if you can get a copy it's worth a skim. The propaganda techniques discussed may seem quaint by today's standards but the underlying methodologies are not all that different.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/3134771660
I might submit that one of the requirements of participation in the discussions here is (or should be) that the participant must be able to hold two or more utterly contradictory ideas in his head and then consider how they might be reconciled or why they can't be reconciled.
For example: (1) Britain is a poodle bitch of the US and (2) the US is in thrall to British notions of imperialism.
Look, if this were easy we could all go home and find something more useful to do with our time.
The contradictory ideas which most consume me are (1) the idea that the US is the most perfect manifestation of democratic ideals the world has ever seen and (2) the reality that the US is the most deadly warmonger state the world has ever seen.
It looks to me like someone or some thing is using a strong nation as a host to allow them to play out their scheming machinations, then when the host nation has served its purpose (and perhaps got too domineering) has been destroyed as a new host nation has been found. Britain was used, then destroyed. America was used and is possibly now being destroyed. I'm just thinking out aloud here.
I prefer to think of it as a dysfunctional and mutually exploitative marriage. Tied at the hip for better and (especially) for worse.
I hope you aren't speaking from experience, Brother A! :)
Absolutely not. My wife is a living saint. Let’s just say, I got the better end of that deal.
Dr. Gabor Mate, a truly gentle soul, speaking passionately and wisely about what has happened and is happening in the middle east. “I know what happened to my own people [meaning the Jews in the Holocaust]. Nothing that happened to us in any way justifies what’s going on right now.” He finishes by demolishing Netanyahu’s grotesque appeal to apocalyptic prophecy.
https://youtu.be/yxensYM2R40?si=-ei20xvoEJ0D28-7
Can I just remind people that much of the quoted texts above describe what Britain used to be like, not what it is like now. Britain is America's poodle bitch. There may be a small group of weirdos in the home countries who try to relive past glories (failures actually), but they are hopeless has-beens. Even if we can't agree on who is really calling the shots in global power politics we can hopefully agree that there are several competing power nodes (even inside supposed alliances) and there may be some form of civil war going on within the Illuminati.
He who has the most money and wields excessive power calls the shots or tries too. Why do you think we’ve gone down this perilous path of deviancy and perversion? Who is calling the shots? The 75% donors do and they are stealing the wealth of the country by diverting our treasury to the service of war profiteers who process (launder) the cash while scraping off their taste and the money then goes to operations they (the 75%) own where even more profits find their way into their portfolios. This has been going on for centuries.
Man, that City of London, tho! Sure looks like a power node to me.
True. I remember Max Keiser pointing out that whenever some insanely dangerous financial instrument showed its face, it was invented in London, then given to Wall Street to implement.
Random observations on uk:
Probably obvious thought, but does this history of British Hubris explain their insane support of Ukraine against Russia?
UK Labor has deliberately imported Muslim Voters as a way to change the electorate.
Both parties in uk have been captured by globalists/ elites and hate uk regular voters. Brexit to them was an abomination.
And lots of radical Muslims leaders are in the uk, often on government assistance. I’ve no idea on the politics behind this.
Yes. The British have long viewed Russia as their eternal enemy. Russia, mind you, not the Soviet Union.
This was based on their fear of losing India from whom the British was just the last in a long line of powerful conquerors who raped and pillaged the country of their wealth and resources. They feared Russia would interrupt their theft.
Same goes for fears regarding Russia threatening their prospects in West Asia (eg., the Crimean War).
Thanks for your reminder of the Crimean War and you are exactly right.
No doubt they're trying to change the electorate, but...
This is a play out of the ancient empire playbook. The Assyrians, Babylonians... conquer, depopulate, resettle..
One of the post-WWII takeaways was that nationalism was the font of fascism. So, open borders, LGBTWTF assault on the family... it's all about protecting democracy from fascism.
No irony at all.
...by becoming fascist?
funny innit?
I’m an Irishman. I have no use for the British Crown.
Honestly your comment made my day. Said as much in a recent comment too. Its undercurrent is all over my generation. That is the generation with Irish immigrant grandparents. The grandchildren generation not so much.
Mass Baptism at monastery in middle of Gaza violence
https://orthochristian.com/156992.html
Very interesting read. The Brits never liked us but had to accept us. They're still coercing us into these wars.
As a Brit, I offer no excuses for our horrible machinations. However, I don't think the US neocons need much coercing.
We’re the ugly step-children.
I disagree with Israel doing ethnic cleansing - it's getting rid of Hamas, not the rest of the Palestinians. And it's not directed against Palestinian civilians, although no doubt they will suffer and die. This is a tragic but necessary part of completely defeating an enemy. Ask the citizens of Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc, etc. But neither Japan nor Germany was ever aggressive again.
The analogy isn't really apt, S. Destroying Gaza and its inhabitants to get rid of Hamas is like burning down your neighbourhood to get rid of your bed bugs. There's been far too much moral equivalence from both sides concerning the fighting in Gaza. The Hamas folks who killed those Israelis are evil, and so are the Israelis who are levelling whole swathes of Gaza and killing thousands of innocent Palestinians.
Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? The destruction of civilians in those cities wasn’t an unfortunate side-effect of the bombing. It was the point. It wasn’t a “tragic but necessary part of completely defeating the enemy.” It was a violation of the norms of warfare — i.e., a war crime. Thus to use them to excuse what’s happening in Gaza is rather ironic considering you “disagree with Israel doing ethnic cleansing.”
There was no such thing as "smart bombs" back then. They only way to expedite the process to allow the Axis to succumb was carpet bombing. Yes it included civilians but also targeted industrial centers and military operations. The point is back then that is the only way this could be accomplished. Hence, never considered as "war crimes". This was the 40's.
“Hence, never considered as "war crimes".”
I thought there was a difference between accidental or “collateral” and intentional civilian causalities. The latter is universally considered outside the bounds of legitimate warfare (though history is littered with violations) — hence the outrage over the killing of women and children by Hamas and Israel in the current conflict. The fact is, the carpet bombing of residential areas was not merely an unfortunate collateral consequence of inaccurate targeting of otherwise legit military sites. Civilians WERE the target.
I get that Brits were eager to exact revenge for the Blitz (which, incidentally, was a war crime). I also get that, in the heat of the moment (go figure), the allied establishment and public were broadly in agreement that the ends (bringing the war to a quicker end) justified the means (carpet bombing civilians). So, of course it has never been considered a war crime.
But none of this negates the fact that the intentional bombing of civilians would have been condemned (even in the 40s) except that, as usual, the victors got to decide what was and was not a crime.
Yes, it was the point. But the war was already lost for Germany when Dresden was bombed, and Japan had to be forced to surrender before many more Allied troops (and Japanese civilians) would have died. Both had to have their will to fight removed. But you won’t understand that or Israel’s position now.
So, Tikkun Olam is just another Zionist talking point not to be taken seriously, but great for virtue signaling, yes?
Dresden was a shameful act of retribution against a civilian population. Whether the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was strictly necessary and saved lives is hotly debated to this day. You can’t simply assert otherwise as if its self-evident. Moreover, even if the bombing ended the war quicker and saved allied troops, it arguably remains the case that purposefully instigating the mass destruction (!) of a civilian population was and is a war crime.
But all of it was the consequence of fallible political decisions. And you cannot erase the criminal behavior of the Japanese of its prisoner treatment and invasion tactics. Make your case to the Americans who sacrificed their lives and were marched to starvation and death by them. How quickly we forget. Ask the soldier survivors. What utter hubris is in all of this thread. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. It reminds me of all those idiots who hate Columbus for bumping into the “New World”. As if acts don’t have consequences.
You're probably not going to like this article. You can discount the analysis, but I suggest following the documentary evidence it presents: https://moneycircus.substack.com/p/crisis-update-gaza-depopulation-plan
[ EDIT: realizing the Money Circus links are paywalled, I found this free article which has much of the same story: https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/ ]
While you're at it, you should understand the roots of Hamas. Much more documentary evidence here: https://swprs.org/why-israel-created-hamas/
The analogy to WWII Germany and Japan is a poor one, for a few reasons:
Neither Gaza nor the West Bank was ever culturally self-contained or politically self-determined. These are parts of the Arab world, which will continue to influence the survivors. Do you propose that the entire Arab world should suffer this "complete defeat"? Imagine what that conflagration would look like!
America invested heavily in the postwar rebuilding and reshaping of West Germany and Japan. Do you imagine Israel engaging in this level of economic cooperation and cultural exchange with its "completely defeated" internal Arab population? That would be quite a policy reversal. They've held these people in what amounts to concentration camps for decades now.
Well stated.
Propaganda free zone.
I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but the aggressor in Ukraine has been the Ukrainian regime itself. They have terrorized and murdered the Russian speaking population of the country since 2014. Moreover, Russian forces aren’t rampaging through Ukraine killing people. They have dug into defensive positions while the Ukrainians hurl 100s of thousands of men at them in hopeless offensive actions at our behest. The question isn’t whether Russia will stop until it reaches its goals. The question is whether we will.
I do not deny that Israel has as much a right to defend itself as does Russia (though I would dispute whether the campaign in Gaza in its present form constitutes a legitimate defensive action). My point was not simply that Russia had reason to invade Ukraine, but that Russia has been very careful to avoid killing civilians. What’s more, the lives of all those Ukrainian soldiers could have been saved if the West hadn’t prevented Ukraine from reaching a peaceful settlement with Russia in the early months of the war.
That's simply disinformational. Hamas rockets are not remotely on the same level of threat as Ukrainian artillery and missiles. A simple comparison of casualties illustrates that.
I'm also interested to note that you consistently fail to address the Nakba, or the videos of Israeli veterans of the 1948 war and its aftermath--interviews on Israeli TV--recounting massacres, rapes, and plundering of Arab villagers. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's also noteworthy that you fail to address the widespread disinformation--40 babies beheaded? What's up?
"I suspect someone sitting in a house in Israel feels the same fear as someone in Ukraine"
Why are you so unable to feel any empathy for people in Gaza? I just saw an article detailing that the Israelis are using one ton bombs on civilian areas. There is no proportionality whatsoever there. That is done--and quite expressly so--to maximize destruction and casualties. The Israeli policy of deterrence is expressly a policy of disproportionate response, and that ipso facto means massive civilian casualties.
Later, perhaps tomorrow, I'll be providing a transcript of a John Mearsheimer talk in which he addresses some of the rest.
Russia's only goal was protecting their perimeter and was promised through treaty NATO would not infringe on their borders. I think their goal is legitimate, what b
goals are you talking about?
That is true, Frank and our government has a lot of shame hung upon all of citizens for a project that does not benefit any of us unless you have a place at the swine trough where the money in politics flows to the swine who pretend to protect our country. Both the Ukraine debacle and now the Hamas/Israel conflict is just more of the same. I am not pro-Hamas nor am I pro-Israel. I'm tired of the theater of atrocity porn intended to keep us in a constant state of fear while our leaders continue to destroy us from within.
Nope. No promotion of genocide.
I actually liked the comparison of Hamas to the IRA, but no genocide. We should have stopped funding the UK occupation of the Falklands and Gibraltar and stop funding Israel's occupations.
Pity the poor straw men.
https://twitter.com/roo7yn/status/1719261613977378897
"when Israel kills innocents, ..., it is not done deliberately."
I won't tolerate you using my space to propagate lies. One example of many possible examples.
Israel has openly stated that their policy of deterrence is based on massively disproportionate responses. That's why Israeli generals are now openly stating that the purpose of their bombing is *maximum destruction* in a city of 2.3 million people. Not precision strikes on Hamas. Maximum destruction. That means that those massive civilian casualties are *intended.* They are not incidental. That's the entire point of the Israeli theory of deterrence.
"Anyone who thinks for one second [Israel] gives a damn about any civilian casualties in Gaza is an idiot."
Addendum. In your earlier comment you stated that I'm fostering anti-semitism. I won't tolerate that, either.
Years ago I read Guido Preparata's Conjuring Hitler and his brief The Incubation.
I was floored. Still am in a way as I was brought up half Brit. The Atti-tude is devastating.
A tone of voice to rule the world......( pirates ? ! )
As I see so often “All roads lead to London”.
City of London……FIFY
MABA
Make America unBritish Again