The Saker article is just a word salad trying to explain away her betrayal. We are facing the greatest political crisis since WW2 and millions are looking for clear leadership, not mealy mouthed compromise.
"My view was that, since Meloni ran on a platform of Homeland, Family, and God, her obeisance to the globalist and godless West—of which NATO is the military arm—would appear to be a betrayal of those principles, no matter what her positions in the past had been. Other commenters disagreed and maintained that Meloni was in a tough position and had no choice but to bow to NATO"
Just to be clear, I thought that Meloni was known to be pro NATO before the election, and that if this registered at all, she won in spite of it, not because of it. Her pro family position was decisive. She bloody well has a choice regarding the Ukraine war.
I'm curious as to whether or not her support translates into anything tangible. She may find it politic for one reason or another to make mouth noises about being pro Ukraine, but does that mean that Italian weapons will begin flowing to Ukraine? The statements of politicians generally and European politicians in particular are not always to be taken at face value. She may be content to deplore what is happening in Ukraine while not doing a great deal for the Ukrainians. Or she may go all in and open up the weapons tap in a big way. But she has a choice. Given that her pro family position makes her anathema to the EU, she won't derive much goodwill from supporting NATO. The Eurocracy will be gunning for her no matter what she does. I guess we'll see.
Meloni is endorsing my enslavement to the US military dictatorship. And why not, everyone else does. "Both" US parties do. Americans are not allowed to vote to be neutral and end US global genocide. Even if we vote for reduced foreign intervention, normalization of relations with Russia, and the candidate promising those things wins, we still aren't allowed to have what we voted for, as we saw in 2016 election. First, Trump immediately turned out to be a worse neocon than McCain, brutally bombed Syria and Afhgan, sent tanks to Estonia-Russia border "to reassure NATO" after only weeks in office. Robert Kagan patted him on the head. In April 2017 Trump further nullified his election by surrendering all military decisions to the Pentagon. In July 2017 Trump went on TV and said he changed his mind about endless Mideast wars, now thinks they're important. In August, 2017, the House and Senate nearly unanimously removed all Russia decisions from Trump and reassigned them to the Senate. Trump was humiliated for the whole world to see as were his 2016 voters. The US, Italy, or any country can simply say, we're going to be neutral in cases of military aggression. Someone just has to say, "stop," and it will.
Give Meloni time. There is nothing to be gained by an 'in your face' rejection of the EU, and I know many of you disagree but Trump accomplished a great deal even as he seemed to be accommodating his enemies.
For starters we were in a recession since 2008. Obama only made things worse. Trump had the economy booming. Then Trump made us net exporters of oil and gas. Gasoline prices were less than half what they are now. Wait till you see this winter's heating bills. Afghanistan was totally under control, with only 250 troops on the ground, and no casualties in way over a year. Taxes were reduced. Our military was upgraded. Russia , and China, Iran and North Korea, were more or less behaving themselves. The President, and Melania, I might add, were respected on the world stage, if not exactly liked because he had an 'America First' policy. I could go on and on. The simple question is, do you feel better off and more secure today?
Your initial comment was in response to Meloni and her appeasement of the US war industry. I thought you were saying Trump had "accomplishments" vs the war industry that delivered on his promises to 2016 voters. Sadly, he accomplished the reverse of what he promised. Even if we vote for reduced foreign intervention, normalization of relations with Russia, as Trump promised, we still aren't allowed to have what we voted for as we saw in 2016 election. First, Trump immediately turned out to be a worse neocon than McCain, brutally bombed Syria and Afhgan, sent tanks to Estonia-Russia border "to reassure NATO" after only weeks in office. Robert Kagan patted him on the head. In April 2017 Trump further nullified his election by surrendering all military decisions to the Pentagon. In July 2017 Trump went on TV and said he changed his mind about endless Mideast wars, now thinks they're important. In August, 2017, the House and Senate nearly unanimously removed all Russia decisions from Trump and reassigned them to the Senate. Trump was humiliated for the whole world to see as were his 2016 voters. The US, Italy, or any country can simply say, we're going to be neutral in cases of military aggression. Someone just has to say, "stop," and it will.
In defence of Georgia, European politics is incredibly tangled. Italy has a debt to gdp ratio of something like 125%. The only reason the country hasn't collapsed like Greece almost did is because the ECB is propping it up. The way the EU works is bribery and blackmail. They're still pressing down on the UK and we left officially nearly 3 years ago. I don't see how she hasn't been told straight to tow the line or else. It was the EU / Globalist faction that did for Liz Truss when she tried to set an unapproved course. Some commentary I read posited the Truss stitch up as a warning to Georgia of what could happen if she's not a very good girl. It may seem far fetched but the EU no longer even tries to hide their dark side. Cruella Von D openly threatened Italy before the election results so there's a rock, then there's Georgia and then a hard place. It will take a collective of nations to stand together - but that is unlikely because once again politics there is so deeply tangled.
Yes, very good comment. I think Meloni is well-advised to "play nice" with the EU and the U.S. at this point. It is wise to bide her time. This is especially so when the EU itself is in the process of imploding and the U.S. midterms may (hopefully will) impact support of Ukraine and the progression of the war there. I do not think she has changed her views so quickly and I think she is smart enough to know she must be very cautious in what she does or she will be "Trussed" in short order. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to know what battles to pick and when.
In Italian politics, one thing you don't have is time. Governments and leaders come and go like interns in Bill Clinton's White House. The globalists will try to take her out anyway - look at VdL's remarks even before she was elected. She might as well go for broke - if she is genuine, of course.
We must all be sneaking up on an unassailable truth: there is a BIG disconnect between the way we ELECT politicians and the way that politicians decide how to STAY politicians.
Another way of expressing it would be politicians start by seeking the make changes that benefit their electors and end up seeking to make changes that benefit their financial backers.
Aspen Institute in 2021, plenty of on-the-record support for Ukraine™. If the "line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being," the line between globalism and participatory populist nationalism cuts through Ukraine at roughly the Dnieper River. For Americans, it is not possible to be both American First and pro-war in Ukraine. Italians will have to sort out whether they're going to allow their so-called populist prime minister to roll back to the days of Mario Draghi.
I'm headed out to the grocery store to buy a head of lettuce. Will anybody take the Meloni side of the bet?
The Saker article is just a word salad trying to explain away her betrayal. We are facing the greatest political crisis since WW2 and millions are looking for clear leadership, not mealy mouthed compromise.
Bring Back Berlusconi!
"My view was that, since Meloni ran on a platform of Homeland, Family, and God, her obeisance to the globalist and godless West—of which NATO is the military arm—would appear to be a betrayal of those principles, no matter what her positions in the past had been. Other commenters disagreed and maintained that Meloni was in a tough position and had no choice but to bow to NATO"
Just to be clear, I thought that Meloni was known to be pro NATO before the election, and that if this registered at all, she won in spite of it, not because of it. Her pro family position was decisive. She bloody well has a choice regarding the Ukraine war.
I'm curious as to whether or not her support translates into anything tangible. She may find it politic for one reason or another to make mouth noises about being pro Ukraine, but does that mean that Italian weapons will begin flowing to Ukraine? The statements of politicians generally and European politicians in particular are not always to be taken at face value. She may be content to deplore what is happening in Ukraine while not doing a great deal for the Ukrainians. Or she may go all in and open up the weapons tap in a big way. But she has a choice. Given that her pro family position makes her anathema to the EU, she won't derive much goodwill from supporting NATO. The Eurocracy will be gunning for her no matter what she does. I guess we'll see.
Meloni is endorsing my enslavement to the US military dictatorship. And why not, everyone else does. "Both" US parties do. Americans are not allowed to vote to be neutral and end US global genocide. Even if we vote for reduced foreign intervention, normalization of relations with Russia, and the candidate promising those things wins, we still aren't allowed to have what we voted for, as we saw in 2016 election. First, Trump immediately turned out to be a worse neocon than McCain, brutally bombed Syria and Afhgan, sent tanks to Estonia-Russia border "to reassure NATO" after only weeks in office. Robert Kagan patted him on the head. In April 2017 Trump further nullified his election by surrendering all military decisions to the Pentagon. In July 2017 Trump went on TV and said he changed his mind about endless Mideast wars, now thinks they're important. In August, 2017, the House and Senate nearly unanimously removed all Russia decisions from Trump and reassigned them to the Senate. Trump was humiliated for the whole world to see as were his 2016 voters. The US, Italy, or any country can simply say, we're going to be neutral in cases of military aggression. Someone just has to say, "stop," and it will.
Give Meloni time. There is nothing to be gained by an 'in your face' rejection of the EU, and I know many of you disagree but Trump accomplished a great deal even as he seemed to be accommodating his enemies.
You say "Trump accomplished a great deal." Could you please give examples of these accomplishments?
For starters we were in a recession since 2008. Obama only made things worse. Trump had the economy booming. Then Trump made us net exporters of oil and gas. Gasoline prices were less than half what they are now. Wait till you see this winter's heating bills. Afghanistan was totally under control, with only 250 troops on the ground, and no casualties in way over a year. Taxes were reduced. Our military was upgraded. Russia , and China, Iran and North Korea, were more or less behaving themselves. The President, and Melania, I might add, were respected on the world stage, if not exactly liked because he had an 'America First' policy. I could go on and on. The simple question is, do you feel better off and more secure today?
Your initial comment was in response to Meloni and her appeasement of the US war industry. I thought you were saying Trump had "accomplishments" vs the war industry that delivered on his promises to 2016 voters. Sadly, he accomplished the reverse of what he promised. Even if we vote for reduced foreign intervention, normalization of relations with Russia, as Trump promised, we still aren't allowed to have what we voted for as we saw in 2016 election. First, Trump immediately turned out to be a worse neocon than McCain, brutally bombed Syria and Afhgan, sent tanks to Estonia-Russia border "to reassure NATO" after only weeks in office. Robert Kagan patted him on the head. In April 2017 Trump further nullified his election by surrendering all military decisions to the Pentagon. In July 2017 Trump went on TV and said he changed his mind about endless Mideast wars, now thinks they're important. In August, 2017, the House and Senate nearly unanimously removed all Russia decisions from Trump and reassigned them to the Senate. Trump was humiliated for the whole world to see as were his 2016 voters. The US, Italy, or any country can simply say, we're going to be neutral in cases of military aggression. Someone just has to say, "stop," and it will.
Here's one thing Trump did. He started no new wars.
For an American President, that's saying a lot.
In defence of Georgia, European politics is incredibly tangled. Italy has a debt to gdp ratio of something like 125%. The only reason the country hasn't collapsed like Greece almost did is because the ECB is propping it up. The way the EU works is bribery and blackmail. They're still pressing down on the UK and we left officially nearly 3 years ago. I don't see how she hasn't been told straight to tow the line or else. It was the EU / Globalist faction that did for Liz Truss when she tried to set an unapproved course. Some commentary I read posited the Truss stitch up as a warning to Georgia of what could happen if she's not a very good girl. It may seem far fetched but the EU no longer even tries to hide their dark side. Cruella Von D openly threatened Italy before the election results so there's a rock, then there's Georgia and then a hard place. It will take a collective of nations to stand together - but that is unlikely because once again politics there is so deeply tangled.
Yes, very good comment. I think Meloni is well-advised to "play nice" with the EU and the U.S. at this point. It is wise to bide her time. This is especially so when the EU itself is in the process of imploding and the U.S. midterms may (hopefully will) impact support of Ukraine and the progression of the war there. I do not think she has changed her views so quickly and I think she is smart enough to know she must be very cautious in what she does or she will be "Trussed" in short order. Sometimes you have to be smart enough to know what battles to pick and when.
In Italian politics, one thing you don't have is time. Governments and leaders come and go like interns in Bill Clinton's White House. The globalists will try to take her out anyway - look at VdL's remarks even before she was elected. She might as well go for broke - if she is genuine, of course.
@dissonant
I agree. If she's smart she'll lie low. Nothing she might say or do today will change the US/EU war party.
We must all be sneaking up on an unassailable truth: there is a BIG disconnect between the way we ELECT politicians and the way that politicians decide how to STAY politicians.
Another way of expressing it would be politicians start by seeking the make changes that benefit their electors and end up seeking to make changes that benefit their financial backers.
SAD but it brings us to today's impasse.
Aspen Institute in 2021, plenty of on-the-record support for Ukraine™. If the "line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being," the line between globalism and participatory populist nationalism cuts through Ukraine at roughly the Dnieper River. For Americans, it is not possible to be both American First and pro-war in Ukraine. Italians will have to sort out whether they're going to allow their so-called populist prime minister to roll back to the days of Mario Draghi.
I'm headed out to the grocery store to buy a head of lettuce. Will anybody take the Meloni side of the bet?
Tx