Another mental health day, but I’ll offer two brief updates first. Regarding the Polish elections this Sunday, a somewhat remarkable development has occurred. It demonstrates that the ruling Law and Justice party (PiS) is seriously concerned that it will be forced into a coalition that will make its current policies with regard to Russia difficult to maintain. Recall that this follows in the wake of the resignation of the top two Polish generals—a vote of no confidence, one way or another—in the current government:
So, Mr wauck, how does Eliade or any other thinker, help you understand that whether you like it or not the Zionist movement arose among the Jews and it succeeded in establishing a state where today most of the Jews now live. It has a Jewish population of around 8 million and another million or so Arab citizens. The Jews are not going anywhere. Furthermore, when will you and other Christians get over your ideas, or the idea of the Catholic Church, that it is verrus Israel. Wouldn’t you say it’s about time to change some particularistic tendencies in those quarters?
Dear Moshe - I read Mr Wauck's comments as saying a secular state is desirable versus an explicitly religious one; nothing as to whether Israeli Jews should look elsewhere for a place to live. That is but a straw-man. Mr Wauck is clear his thinking applies whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim adherent; the appeal to Eliade's Myth of the Eternal Return simply grounds his perspective in the thinking of a deep scholar on these matters. We are all vexed by the question of "how"
Also, the concept of Israel as similar to the crusader states is old news and can be shot down easily. It was a staple of Arab propaganda and a notion of the marginal Israeli political figure uri avneri.
I’m disappointed that the basic fundamental problem with Gaza & the so called West Bank has been ignored in all of this. The unfortunate fact is that Jews are just not acceptable under the concept of Dar al-Islam. It’s all about the Islamic faith not accepting any other religion. Why did the Arabs attack Israel in 1948 with its Auschwitz borders? Gaza was turned over to the so called Palestinians in 2005. They promptly destroyed the greenhouses and other things left over by the Israeli settlers. Rather than build a productive society they “elected” Hamas who then murdered any political opposition and built a terrorist state. The idea that the Gazans were held in a prison is true. It’s just not the Jews who imprisoned them. Hamas is the jailer and Islam is the ideology. What happened on 10/7 revealed what fundamentalist Islam and its adherents is all about. These people are not capable of self governance until their ideology changes. Think imperial Japan and NAZI Germany who were thoroughly defeated and had their cultures changed to civilized societies. We can only hope that the Israeli offensive does just that. I’m skeptical because the media and analysts including this substack will start the usual campaign of demonizing Israel and questioning their motives.
Gideon Levy apparently hasn’t seen or perhaps doesn’t believe what the monsters perpetuated on 10/7, much like the cognitive dissonance displayed by the Hamas supporters at Harvard who believe the images displayed by Hamas itself was staged propaganda by Israel. People on the Left just can’t let go of deeply held beliefs.
I can actually agree with much of what you're saying here. As a Christian, I'm not acceptable under the concept of Dar-al-Islam, either. Years ago, when I commented at another blog, I advocated for restrictions on the immigration of Muslims to the US because of the ideologies you mention. I was vociferously attacked as a bigot by Jews--many of whom now want me to call for genocide against Palestinians. Apparently they thought that I was secretly advocating that Jews also be excluded.
I simply think that a Jewish homeland in Palestine was always a bad idea, for the same reason that the Christian Crusader states didn't last. I oppose conquering people and taking their land away, even of some guy named Balfour said it was OK. No, I don't accept the notion that Jews are a Chosen People any more than Muslims are--I don't believe that land follows blood or religion. The idea that a nation or ethnicity has a special relationship with God is actually widespread in time and place throughout the world--and the Jewish version is no more historical than any of the others. Same goes for Islamic versions. In fact, I think that Zionism is an ideology rather than an historically based belief, just as I regard the Islamic ideas you cite as ideological.
If you or any other reader want to read up on why I say all these things, and what I think the relationship of Christian faith is to Israelite (or later Judaic) religion is, feel free to go back to the very beginning of my posts and read forward. You can also consult Mircea Eliade's Myth of the Eternal Return/Cosmos and History, as well.
Haaretz has long been characterized as the "New York Times of Israel". That is quite apt, in a number of ways--mainly negative, in my view. They have long espoused opposition to the "occupation" and supported a Palestinian state and a return to the June 1967 lines, which were correctly called "Auschwitz borders" by Foreign Minister Abba Eban. This is because those lines, the armistice lines of 1949 following Israel's War of Liberation (as it is called in Hebrew), were not strategically viable (just look at maps, including a topographical map and have a minimal understanding of war) and are a virtual invitation to Arab states' aggression and so generated a situation that was inherently unstable. That is a "peace" that had all the elements of encouraging war--war of aggression by the Arabs and war of "preemptive counterattack" (a concept of the 1948 general and strategist Yigal Allon) by the Israelis. That was what occured in June 1967. In this vein, it is clear that there can be no Palestinian state--certainly in Gaza, as was proven by the incursion and massacre on Saturday and, most of all, in the so-called 'West Bank'. A state entity there, led by a jihadist/Arab nationalist/revanchist regime, would be a source of constant terror and could as a sovereign state invite an Arab expeditionary force to come across the Jordan River. Anyone with a minimal understanding of the role of topography in war will see that the Jordan Valley and the line of hills that overlook it on the West is a natural barrier to any force invading from the East, especially a modern, mechanized and armored force. So Israel MUST have strategic control of the Jordan Valley and the range of hills above it. Furthermore, the line delineating the West Bank leaves Israel with an untenable line of contact and allows an enemy force that invades the West Bank to easily cut off Jerusalem, the capital, from the rest of Israel. And, in addition, Israel is at its narrowest width, in some places only 10 miles or so, along the 1967 line due to the shape of the West Bank that is like a bulge pressing into Israel. 'Woke' and 'progressive' Israelis, who, like most Israelis, do not have some 'fundamentalist' hatred of the Arabs, want to believe, want so hard to believe, that the Palestinians can be partners in peace. Well....what do you think of that?
2. "most Israelis". What does "most" mean, concretely? We know that Levy and the readers of Haaretz probably "do not have some 'fundamentalist' hatred of the Arabs", but that cannot be said of some influential members of the Israeli government--or the people who elected them and support the government that they formed.
IOW, Israel has given one million people 24 hours to flee. Imagine that happening in any major city you can think of.
DD Geopolitics
@DD_Geopolitics
BREAKING: Israel has told the UN and the people of Northern Gaza to evacuate or be ethnically cleansed after 24 hours.
The Israeli Ministry of Defense and the IDF notified the UN just before midnight local time to evacuate its staff and notify Palestinians living north of Wadi Gaza that they should evacuate to the southern part of the Gaza Strip in the next 24 hours, UN spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric and another source with direct knowledge.
More than 1 million Palestinians live in this area. The message could be a signal that the Israeli military is preparing for an imminent ground operation.
Wow. That was written by a REAL journalist; one who is brave enough to tell the truth on an issue that is beyond third rail, he will anger both sides with this fair and balanced opinion. I was moved.
The solution? MLK gave a speech in 1957: Love Your Enemy. I read it to my 3rd grade catholic school students every year around MLK day (13 years now), I’m not sure they get it but it makes more sense to me each time I read it and analyze it for and with the class.
The only thing that can stop the cycle of hate is the incredible power of love.
Unfortunately the powerful will never let that happen. War is too lucrative to the empire, governments the MIC and their enablers in banking, MSM etc., etc. Their propaganda and manipulation abilities are off the charts. The current atrocity porn will, as desired, continue to escalate the cycle of hate that have sent many a civilization to the dust bin of history.
How does the old saying go?
When you are planning revenge, start by digging 2 graves.
To be honest I think one day in the near to mid future Israel will have to fight a nuclear war. Most of the countries around it are sworn to its destruction. Iran will have a nuke in fairly short order. Then what? Has it been all talk these past decades? We’ll find out soon enough.
Levy offers no solution either, though. The Palestinians will never be satisfied with anything less than the abolition of Israel itself, and the Israelis will never willingly give up. It really is a duel to the death, and always has been. The loser of this duel will be the first one to find a line of barbarity they won't cross.
I recognize the strength of your argument. You may be right at this point. My belief is that there may have been a point in the past when a solution was still possible.
The obvious solution in the past was either expel all the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank in 1967, or never partition Palestine in the first place thus never forming the Israeli state. The ideal solution today would be to give Israel a large chunk of Federal land out in the western U.S. in return for them decamping from the Middle East, but the Israelis would never accept such a deal and the U.S. government would never offer it.
No partition but have worked, but for insistence on a Jewish ethnic state. Even now, that may be the biggest stumbling block. I suspect most Palestinians could accept that, rather than being absorbed by neighboring Arab states.
Yes! Brilliant! And they could secede from the US and, in the name of freedom and democracy, establish the theocratic Republic of New Israel! And the US could support it with trillions in reparations for centuries of anti-semitism! Perfect!
What...you say that the people of Israel have no right to Southern California? I say, Balderdash! Have you ever been to Hollywood? Don't you know who owns Southern California?
What...you say that some Americans living in Southern California might not like being deprived of their Homeland? Well, I say, what right do they have to complain just because they live there? Absolutely none, I say!
Plus, if the indigenous Americans behave, and adopt the right behaviors, they can apply for citizenship!
That's a false dichotomy: "Palestinians on the West Bank to accept Jews living among them just as 2 million Muslims reside safely in Israel." It's not "Jews living among them," it's Jews illegally dispossessing them, forcing them off the land, destroying property, orchards, etc. Are you seriously suggesting that the "settlers" ever genuinely would have accepted Palestinians living among them? It's different there than in Israel. But the real stumbling block remains Israel as a Jewish state--that means something. Israel could probably succeed, still, as a multi-ethnic/religious Palestine. That's what negotiations should aim for.
I don't think Castelletto is overestimating. That contingent, or people with a similar orientation (maybe not rebuilding the Temple with animal sacrifices), control the Israeli government and, to a great extent, the IDF. Not so much the intel agencies.
So, Mr wauck, how does Eliade or any other thinker, help you understand that whether you like it or not the Zionist movement arose among the Jews and it succeeded in establishing a state where today most of the Jews now live. It has a Jewish population of around 8 million and another million or so Arab citizens. The Jews are not going anywhere. Furthermore, when will you and other Christians get over your ideas, or the idea of the Catholic Church, that it is verrus Israel. Wouldn’t you say it’s about time to change some particularistic tendencies in those quarters?
Dear Moshe - I read Mr Wauck's comments as saying a secular state is desirable versus an explicitly religious one; nothing as to whether Israeli Jews should look elsewhere for a place to live. That is but a straw-man. Mr Wauck is clear his thinking applies whether Jew, Christian, or Muslim adherent; the appeal to Eliade's Myth of the Eternal Return simply grounds his perspective in the thinking of a deep scholar on these matters. We are all vexed by the question of "how"
Also, the concept of Israel as similar to the crusader states is old news and can be shot down easily. It was a staple of Arab propaganda and a notion of the marginal Israeli political figure uri avneri.
I’m disappointed that the basic fundamental problem with Gaza & the so called West Bank has been ignored in all of this. The unfortunate fact is that Jews are just not acceptable under the concept of Dar al-Islam. It’s all about the Islamic faith not accepting any other religion. Why did the Arabs attack Israel in 1948 with its Auschwitz borders? Gaza was turned over to the so called Palestinians in 2005. They promptly destroyed the greenhouses and other things left over by the Israeli settlers. Rather than build a productive society they “elected” Hamas who then murdered any political opposition and built a terrorist state. The idea that the Gazans were held in a prison is true. It’s just not the Jews who imprisoned them. Hamas is the jailer and Islam is the ideology. What happened on 10/7 revealed what fundamentalist Islam and its adherents is all about. These people are not capable of self governance until their ideology changes. Think imperial Japan and NAZI Germany who were thoroughly defeated and had their cultures changed to civilized societies. We can only hope that the Israeli offensive does just that. I’m skeptical because the media and analysts including this substack will start the usual campaign of demonizing Israel and questioning their motives.
Gideon Levy apparently hasn’t seen or perhaps doesn’t believe what the monsters perpetuated on 10/7, much like the cognitive dissonance displayed by the Hamas supporters at Harvard who believe the images displayed by Hamas itself was staged propaganda by Israel. People on the Left just can’t let go of deeply held beliefs.
Never again is an empty phrase.
I can actually agree with much of what you're saying here. As a Christian, I'm not acceptable under the concept of Dar-al-Islam, either. Years ago, when I commented at another blog, I advocated for restrictions on the immigration of Muslims to the US because of the ideologies you mention. I was vociferously attacked as a bigot by Jews--many of whom now want me to call for genocide against Palestinians. Apparently they thought that I was secretly advocating that Jews also be excluded.
I simply think that a Jewish homeland in Palestine was always a bad idea, for the same reason that the Christian Crusader states didn't last. I oppose conquering people and taking their land away, even of some guy named Balfour said it was OK. No, I don't accept the notion that Jews are a Chosen People any more than Muslims are--I don't believe that land follows blood or religion. The idea that a nation or ethnicity has a special relationship with God is actually widespread in time and place throughout the world--and the Jewish version is no more historical than any of the others. Same goes for Islamic versions. In fact, I think that Zionism is an ideology rather than an historically based belief, just as I regard the Islamic ideas you cite as ideological.
If you or any other reader want to read up on why I say all these things, and what I think the relationship of Christian faith is to Israelite (or later Judaic) religion is, feel free to go back to the very beginning of my posts and read forward. You can also consult Mircea Eliade's Myth of the Eternal Return/Cosmos and History, as well.
Haaretz has long been characterized as the "New York Times of Israel". That is quite apt, in a number of ways--mainly negative, in my view. They have long espoused opposition to the "occupation" and supported a Palestinian state and a return to the June 1967 lines, which were correctly called "Auschwitz borders" by Foreign Minister Abba Eban. This is because those lines, the armistice lines of 1949 following Israel's War of Liberation (as it is called in Hebrew), were not strategically viable (just look at maps, including a topographical map and have a minimal understanding of war) and are a virtual invitation to Arab states' aggression and so generated a situation that was inherently unstable. That is a "peace" that had all the elements of encouraging war--war of aggression by the Arabs and war of "preemptive counterattack" (a concept of the 1948 general and strategist Yigal Allon) by the Israelis. That was what occured in June 1967. In this vein, it is clear that there can be no Palestinian state--certainly in Gaza, as was proven by the incursion and massacre on Saturday and, most of all, in the so-called 'West Bank'. A state entity there, led by a jihadist/Arab nationalist/revanchist regime, would be a source of constant terror and could as a sovereign state invite an Arab expeditionary force to come across the Jordan River. Anyone with a minimal understanding of the role of topography in war will see that the Jordan Valley and the line of hills that overlook it on the West is a natural barrier to any force invading from the East, especially a modern, mechanized and armored force. So Israel MUST have strategic control of the Jordan Valley and the range of hills above it. Furthermore, the line delineating the West Bank leaves Israel with an untenable line of contact and allows an enemy force that invades the West Bank to easily cut off Jerusalem, the capital, from the rest of Israel. And, in addition, Israel is at its narrowest width, in some places only 10 miles or so, along the 1967 line due to the shape of the West Bank that is like a bulge pressing into Israel. 'Woke' and 'progressive' Israelis, who, like most Israelis, do not have some 'fundamentalist' hatred of the Arabs, want to believe, want so hard to believe, that the Palestinians can be partners in peace. Well....what do you think of that?
1. What if ... one state of Palestine.
2. "most Israelis". What does "most" mean, concretely? We know that Levy and the readers of Haaretz probably "do not have some 'fundamentalist' hatred of the Arabs", but that cannot be said of some influential members of the Israeli government--or the people who elected them and support the government that they formed.
IOW, Israel has given one million people 24 hours to flee. Imagine that happening in any major city you can think of.
DD Geopolitics
@DD_Geopolitics
BREAKING: Israel has told the UN and the people of Northern Gaza to evacuate or be ethnically cleansed after 24 hours.
The Israeli Ministry of Defense and the IDF notified the UN just before midnight local time to evacuate its staff and notify Palestinians living north of Wadi Gaza that they should evacuate to the southern part of the Gaza Strip in the next 24 hours, UN spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric and another source with direct knowledge.
More than 1 million Palestinians live in this area. The message could be a signal that the Israeli military is preparing for an imminent ground operation.
With all due respect to Mark and the rest of y'all...
...there is no 'solution'. But feel free to have at it!
Israel May be trying to soften what Hamas did.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/10/hamas-barbarity-worse-than-what-i-saw-with-isis-u-s-defense-sec-lloyd-austin/
Wow. That was written by a REAL journalist; one who is brave enough to tell the truth on an issue that is beyond third rail, he will anger both sides with this fair and balanced opinion. I was moved.
The solution? MLK gave a speech in 1957: Love Your Enemy. I read it to my 3rd grade catholic school students every year around MLK day (13 years now), I’m not sure they get it but it makes more sense to me each time I read it and analyze it for and with the class.
The only thing that can stop the cycle of hate is the incredible power of love.
Unfortunately the powerful will never let that happen. War is too lucrative to the empire, governments the MIC and their enablers in banking, MSM etc., etc. Their propaganda and manipulation abilities are off the charts. The current atrocity porn will, as desired, continue to escalate the cycle of hate that have sent many a civilization to the dust bin of history.
How does the old saying go?
When you are planning revenge, start by digging 2 graves.
To be honest I think one day in the near to mid future Israel will have to fight a nuclear war. Most of the countries around it are sworn to its destruction. Iran will have a nuke in fairly short order. Then what? Has it been all talk these past decades? We’ll find out soon enough.
Levy offers no solution either, though. The Palestinians will never be satisfied with anything less than the abolition of Israel itself, and the Israelis will never willingly give up. It really is a duel to the death, and always has been. The loser of this duel will be the first one to find a line of barbarity they won't cross.
I recognize the strength of your argument. You may be right at this point. My belief is that there may have been a point in the past when a solution was still possible.
The obvious solution in the past was either expel all the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank in 1967, or never partition Palestine in the first place thus never forming the Israeli state. The ideal solution today would be to give Israel a large chunk of Federal land out in the western U.S. in return for them decamping from the Middle East, but the Israelis would never accept such a deal and the U.S. government would never offer it.
No partition but have worked, but for insistence on a Jewish ethnic state. Even now, that may be the biggest stumbling block. I suspect most Palestinians could accept that, rather than being absorbed by neighboring Arab states.
"The ideal solution today would be to give Israel a large chunk of Federal land out in the western U.S. ..."
Kinda like we gave the Injuns Oklahoma?
Southern California? Similar climate.
Yes! Brilliant! And they could secede from the US and, in the name of freedom and democracy, establish the theocratic Republic of New Israel! And the US could support it with trillions in reparations for centuries of anti-semitism! Perfect!
What...you say that the people of Israel have no right to Southern California? I say, Balderdash! Have you ever been to Hollywood? Don't you know who owns Southern California?
What...you say that some Americans living in Southern California might not like being deprived of their Homeland? Well, I say, what right do they have to complain just because they live there? Absolutely none, I say!
Plus, if the indigenous Americans behave, and adopt the right behaviors, they can apply for citizenship!
Win-win-win-win!
Presumably Joel Stein would like this idea, too.
That's a false dichotomy: "Palestinians on the West Bank to accept Jews living among them just as 2 million Muslims reside safely in Israel." It's not "Jews living among them," it's Jews illegally dispossessing them, forcing them off the land, destroying property, orchards, etc. Are you seriously suggesting that the "settlers" ever genuinely would have accepted Palestinians living among them? It's different there than in Israel. But the real stumbling block remains Israel as a Jewish state--that means something. Israel could probably succeed, still, as a multi-ethnic/religious Palestine. That's what negotiations should aim for.
I don't think Castelletto is overestimating. That contingent, or people with a similar orientation (maybe not rebuilding the Temple with animal sacrifices), control the Israeli government and, to a great extent, the IDF. Not so much the intel agencies.
That's a belief. Not a certainty.
Pls reread where I said in prens "maybe not".