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dissonant1's avatar

I really appreciate (and from a layperson's limited knowledge perspective) agree with Matlock's analysis. It makes perfect sense to me.

In the 10,000 ft view of the Ukraine "problem," I place primary blame on the Neo-cons of both American political parties who could not accept Reagan's victory over the USSR and refused to adjust their views accordingly. These are the same people who will not accept Trump's victory over ISIS and his peacefully aligning Israel and the gulf states against Iran.

These people advocated continuing to press and threaten Russia all these years, without end, based on any justifications they could invent. They have continued to push for NATO expansion right to Russia's borders. They supported a coup in the Ukraine that they knew would necessarily invite a Russian military response. They condemn Russia for its takeover of Crimea in circumstances they encouraged and continue to encourage by supporting civil war through supplying weapons. These people loathed a "peace dividend" and peace as much as Democrats have hated to have budget surpluses and cutting spending.

Putin is asking the U.S. "What is your policy toward Russia?" Does he not have a responsibility to try to find that out? Is he wrong to prepare a defense for his country in the face of potential aggression? If so all traditional diplomacy must be considered acts of war. Putin may be a bastard but at least the Russians know he is THEIR bastard. In this matter he is acting as a national leader SHOULD act.

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Ray-SoCa's avatar

Good articles. I did not realize Ukraine was so ethnically diverse. I thought it was just basically Ukrainian and Russian speakers.

Why is the US so against Federal Governments, and pushes for a centralized government every place outside the US. Afghanistan would have been a lot better with one.

I wish there was a 4th article, one that mentioned:

1. Ukrainian money to the us politicians

2. Russian Economic path today

3. Russian gas / oil diplomacy

4. How effective are the existing sanctions

5. Effect of high price of oil and gas on Russian Economy

6. Impact of Soros funding on Ukrainian politics

7. Risk of Russian efforts to destroy the petro dollar / offer alternatives

8. Impact of us inflation on Russian efforts

9. Impact of allegations of 2020 US Election Fraud on US / Russian credibility

10. Perception of US power / credibility with Biden President and the purging of the US Military

11. How is Ukrainian economy doing today? What’s its probable path.

12. What impact will Nordstream coming online have on Ukrainian economy?

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dissonant1's avatar

Lots of good questions. Particularly with the oil/gas/pipeline issues and to what extent they influence the strategic importance of control of Ukraine. I DO wish our politicians would explain to us why the Ukraine is viewed as being so important to us.

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Mark Wauck's avatar

It depends on what you mean by "ethnically" diverse. What's "ethnic"? The big difference is that especially in the west there are historical and religious differences from the rest of Ukraine. Western Ukraine is what's usually called "Greek (or Uniate) Catholic"--they're in union with Rome and tend to be the most hostile to Russian influence and the most nationalist. In the middle area the Orthodox want to be independent from the Russian Patriarch, although they're not terribly sympathetic to the Greek Catholics.. In the east and in Crimea that area has been under Russian influence the longest--having to do with the Russian conquest of Slavic lands from Tatar and Turkish domination. Even though people in the east may identify as Ukrainian, they most often speak Russia and are culturally more aligned with Russia. Perhaps over simplified. The maps show you how those differences played out in elections.

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Ray-SoCa's avatar

The language map was eye opening, and how it correlated with the voting map.

Sounds like the language and voting maps, also correlates with religion.

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Mark Wauck's avatar

Yes it does. The cultural differences are largely reflective of the religious differences which correlate with the historical differences--the Greek Catholics were part of RC Poland for centuries, even though there's little love lost.

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Wolf J Flywheel's avatar

I believe I've read that George Bush senior promised the Russians, at the time of the allowed reunification of Germany that NATO would not expand closer to Russia's borders than it was at the time. We have.

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Mark Wauck's avatar

Nobody knows that better than Matlock:

"One persistent U.S. demand is that Ukraine’s territorial integrity be restored. Indeed, the U.S. is party to the Budapest Memorandum in which Russia guaranteed Ukraine’s territorial integrity in return for Ukraine’s transfer of Soviet nuclear weapons to Russia for destruction in accord with U.S.-Soviet arms control agreements. What the U.S. demand ignores is that, under traditional international law, agreements remain valid rebus sic stantibus (things remaining the same).

"When the Budapest memorandum was signed in 1994 there was no plan to expand NATO to the east and **Gorbachev had been assured in 1990 that the alliance would not expand.** When in fact it did expand right up to Russia’s borders, Russia was confronted with a radically different strategic situation than existed when the Budapest agreement was signed. "

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Dec 31, 2021
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dissonant1's avatar

TexasDude, if the US is defined as the establishment elites, I think we got pretty good hints that this statement is true with how they responded to an "America First" President.... and how they called his supporters Deplorables.

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Dec 31, 2021
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Mark Wauck's avatar

What Morris neglects to mention is that the US had, in 1961, positioned Jupiter missiles in Turkey. Russia was, in essence, responding to a US provocation:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=u.s.+missiles+in+turkey&t=qupzilla&ia=web

Kennedy apparently hadn't been informed of those missiles, but he used them to establish a quid pro quo to end the crisis:

https://www.fff.org/2016/08/19/u-s-nuclear-weapons-turkey-didnt-jfk-order-removal/

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Dec 31, 2021
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Ray-SoCa's avatar

Great points on NATO. It’s looking for a new mission, since the Warsaw Pact / Ussr one is gone. And Turkeys membership complicates things. Kosovo showed a lot about the EU’s lack of power. And dont forget that other great European led adventure, Libya, where the US broke its promise of non interference.

I was surprised at the hubris of expanding NATO eastward.

And the US is equated about with Russia in Germany, as being unpopular.

My theory is Russia is a safe villain / scapegoat for the woke / Democrats. They are seen as White, Christian, and anti lgbt. And my guess is they have not mastered the effective lobbying / fundraising, as the Ukrainian and Chinese have.

Funny Russian Video mocking wokeness…

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-mocks-woke-american-snowflakes-christmas-diversity-guide

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Mark Wauck's avatar

"White, Christian, and anti lgbt."

Yes.

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Jan 1, 2022
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Mark Wauck's avatar

Yes. It's not pure cynicism--it's true hatred.

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dissonant1's avatar

Well stated. I should have read this before I posted :)

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Dec 31, 2021
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Mark Wauck's avatar

The mystery to me is why the GOP underestimates the maturity of their voters.

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dissonant1's avatar

Dunning-Kruger Effect?

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